Live Q&As

Thanks--if anyone missed last week, it's here, and the question is 2d to last (link).

I'm posting this because I've gotten the same recommendation from others. It's on my reading list, but haven't gotten there yet.

(Producer)

Hi Chatter! We've been talking about the way past chats, and we hope to bring them back soon. The problem is (basically) that they are stored on an old system, so we have to find a way to get them on our current system. I promise that once they are back up, I'll let the 'nuts know.

Would you please talk to a professional therapist? Alone? His yelling at you, in public, for the sole crime of being your idea of helpful instead of his, is verbal abuse.

It is not your responsibility to be exactly the person he wants you to be. Your responsibility is to be yourself, honestly, and his is to be himself, at which point both of you have the right to decide whether these are people you want to spend your life with. That's it. You don't have the right to insist upon changes. You have the right to ask for them, and the right to decide whether to stay or go once you see whether and how your request for change has been answered. Boundaries 101.

Obviously you have made the decision to spend your lives together and have built a family on that decision, but that doesn't mean you signed up to be anyone's personality renovation project. Make the call, get the counseling, please. If you don't know where to find it, call here to ask for a local referral: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233).*

Please don't be put off by its being a domestic violence hotline. The counseling on abuse is what you want, and this is a reputable place to look for it.

Oh my. You're using your own self-doubt to rationalize away a concern about someone you're dating. You know the cliche that you can't love another until you love yourself? Taken literally, it's a stretch, but the core of truth to it is that you won't be able to be a full partner to anyone until you've made peace with who you are. Your question is an excellent illustration of why: You sound uncomfortable with your own emotional style, and so you're willing to believe there's something "wrong" with it, and so you're willing to second-guess your own judgment on this matter as unreliable.

The thing is, there's no "right" way to communicate except to be honest and true to yourself. If you feel happier and more fulfilled around people who have an emotional style similar to yours, then don't apologize for that--heed it, and know you have every right to break up with anyone who doesn't feel like a good fit.If you're naturally outgoing, then don't apologize for that, either.

Maybe you aren't entirely happy with the way people respond to you, and think maybe you do cross the line sometimes, and that's okay, too--but don't try to fix it through the person you date. Fix it internally to your own satisfaction, and to comply with your own standards--not to impress or attract others.

If you're still not sure whether this guy is or isn't a good fit, then by all means get to know him better. But don't do it because you think you have some obligation to be more circumspect, or more open-minded about people who are.

(Producer)

I haven't heard this complaint before, but if anyone is experiencing this, then please let me know. Thanks!

The most helpful way to support him, on the surface, is to follow his lead, be a good listener, and look for things you can take off his hands if and when the storm hits.

But I hope you'll recognize that the best way to proceed is not by being supportive of him, per se, but by being strong for any and all who need you to be. There's a child at the heart of this, of course, so the girl needs the adults to be strong. Your boyfriend does, too, because he's no doubt dealing with a lot of noise in his head, which means he might not always be able to hear the voice of the right thing to do. You, of course, need you to be strong, because your attraction to your boyfriend and the drama of the child both will have strong gravitational pulls, making it hard for you to resist them in the event that walking away turns out to be the sensible course.

Finally, the mom actually needs you to be strong. She's "borderline insane, irresponsible, and punitive"? Maybe her behavior has made all of these charges seem fair, but still, dehumanizing her like that will only make the situation tougher on all of you, and drive decisions that might not serve any interest besides vengeance or evasio of responsibility.

Should your boyfriend prove to be the biological father, and the mother prove to be as unstable as you suggest, it's not unthinkable that your boyfriend could be in a courthouse someday making his case to gain custody. Start with that vision in your mind and work your way back to see where the path of strength really lies.

(more)

Cool, thanks.

(Producer)

Thanks for writing in with this.  Several other chatters submitted similar responses, so I'll contact the team that works on our chat platform and report the issue. Thank you!

What a great follow-up, thank you. And what a great example of a supportive answer. (Speaking of.)

The second part is a PSA on emotional maturity, and the importance of both having it and marrying it. Unfortunately, it takes some to recognize when you don't have it, so the self-diagnostic system is all but useless on that count--but its presence and absence is easier to spot in others, which means anyone who sees this red flag before marrying/procreating/moving in/settling down/jointly investing needs to brake, hard, even if it costs you some lost deposits or tough explanations.

The first part is just an excellent idea--thanks for serving it up.

1. It's perfectly fine, ever reasonable, to say to a recent ex that you need a certain period of no contact so you can adjust to the new order of things. A month, two months, whatever seems about right for you now. You can always revisit once your head clears.

2. I get that you want to feel as if you can do this without help--and if you need any proof that this is an ingrained and positive human trait, just try to help a toddler with something he just learned to do.

However, there's no "should" here--there's only what you do and don't need, or what would and wouldn't benefit you. And, there's no shame in having a refresher appointment, just as you would have if you had finished treatment for a physical illness. If you had cancer, you'd have your caregiver assess your self-care routine periodically and check to be sure you're still in remission. I don't see why an emotional ailment would be any different.

(Producer)

Here you go: Link

You can certainly try, but this marriage appears to be headed for a crash, I don't expect that anyone on the outside will be able to stop it.

For what it's worth--and, again, not that it'll really help--one way to deal with such badmouthing is to say, "I hear that you're upset, but I'll admit I don't understand why you object to strongly to going back to work." I suggest it only because I think we've all been in this position, and saying nothing feels like tacit approval of the bashing; this way you demostrate that you're open to her side if she cares to share it. No, it's not your business, technically, but she's making it your business by mouthing off about her marriage to you.

Another less combative way to avoid abetting the badmouther is to say, "I care about both of you, and I'd appreciate your not saying that around me."

Asked = okay. Told = not okay.

People who share space are going to have to make small adjustments for each other all the time; it's part of the deal, and actually crying abuse or control on all such requests is its own form of abuse and control (having fun yet?). And, people who genuinely like each other and take their commitment to each other seriously will try to accommodate each other on matters too small to dent their senses of self.

I'd give examples, but there's no such thing as an adjustment that's universally "easy" to make.

I think it's a valid thing to flag, thanks.

I see your "suggest," and raise it to a "warn strongly against." Paternity test before all. Thanks.

The "traitor" bit suggests clear thinking is currently beyond her reach.

Good points, thanks.

Yes, kids suffer in a divorce.

They also suffer when they share a home with an alcoholic or problem drinker who has not done the hard work to get well.

And they suffer when their parents don't get along and/or respect each other, yet remain yoked to each other out of an underexamined sense of duty.

And they suffer when their parents make choices for the family based on appearances and/or public opinion instead of developing, then trusting, their own internal compasses.

Take care of yourself, take care of  your children, and be fierce in your dedication to what is right, fair and realistic. That is the foundation of a rewarding life, no matter what shape it takes.

A good lawyer and family therapist will help, too, before you take even the first steps toward separation, since a parent who abuses alcohol is a major custody concern. 

Sounds to me as if she's trying to make this possible for you, vs. pry into your bank records or extract a perceived dollar value for her services.

If you like working with her, then come up with a number you'd feel comfortable paying, and write her a note to that effect. Say you realize her services are worth the full price, of course; you just can't swing it. If she can't accept that price, then ask her to recommend a colleague (in the group or outside it) who she thinks would be a good fit. You can also opt out of the pricing altogether by saying, "My copay is all I can manage at this point, and I don't feel comfortable asking you to accept so little, so instead I'm wondering if you can refer me to someone on my plan."

If you can pay more and she accepts your suggested number, then, great--but I think it's incumbent on you to offer more if and when your financial condition improves.

Remember, too, that she's your therapist, and so your discomfort is something you can express to her out loud. FWIW, she's probably much more comfortable with the business side of this than you are. 

(FWIW2: You probably already checked this, but in case you haven't yet, you might still have some coverage through your plan, if there's any accommodation for out-of-plan/network providers.)

Gack! Yes! I haven't "heard of these strategies applied to marriages," but what I have noticed are situations-day in and day out--where the using the principles of the book would change the whole dynamic from one of conflict to simple respect. To be fair--and thorough--this is true of all of the good child-rearing books, and it's no mystery why: Each of them focuses on the inherent worth and dignity of the individual.

"How to Talk ..." doesn't teach you to speak Kid as if it's some foreigh language, it simply reminds the reader that a child has opinions and feelings and ideas that are no less worthy of adult respect just because they come from a child. "Love and Logic" works on the same general principle, as do the more eye-opening chapters of "Nurture Shock": All of them argue persuasively that instead of getting caught up in conveying the message you want your kids to receive, you'll get a much better outcome if you shut up a moment and see what message your child has come up with on his or her own--both for you and for the situation you're so caught up in trying to solve. And when your child isn't there yet, you give them a chance to figure it out before jumping in with all the answers.

It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to see how this can improve friendships, marriages, workplaces, even interactions with strangers, especially for people who spend most of their time in an authoritarian gear. It's an interesting exercise, I think, to spend some time in a public place, paying attention to the ways other people interact. It's stunning how many times people invalidate each other, just with a phrase or even an expression. I hear it in myself all the time, though I hope less so now that I'm aware of it.

"I'm not really satisfied at work and have little else in my life that fulfills me personally - it's my role as a mommy that seems to define me now, and I love it."

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't have another child--that's for you, your husband, your banker and your doctor to wrestle with--but either way, your life needs your attention. 

There's nothing wrong with feeling as if parenthood is your calling, but you're verging on peril when it becomes the way you define yourself. Your kids will grow up and move on, even a third child if you have one, and then what? Even as your kids get older, you'll need to revise your mom role to occupy an increasingly smaller place in their lives, for their sakes.

Maybe you're doing that now with your two kids, and that's why you want another baby--because your sense of purpose isn't as clear and immediate as it was?

I urge you to consider other ways to find fulfillment--and here's some incentive to do it, in case you're not feeling any right now: It'll set a great example for your kids. Everyone at some point in life feels a bit ... unmoored, unsure of the point of it all, alarmed that laundry and dishes and work are all there is. Having a child depend on you so fully does have a way of becoming a purpose, since there's always another need to be met, but it's just a Band-aid. It would help your kids immensely, in ways they might not recognize, to see you redefine yourself in a way that's enduring, useful and an honest expression of who you are. Wouldn't hurt for you, too. I know it's daunting, but so is caring for helpless little humans, and you seem to have gotten that down.

What do -you- think you should do?

Heh heh.

I think it would be great if you told your friend of your epiphany--though you might want to avoid the whole "I have been unwittingly navigated into treating her just as badly as he does," since that looks a lot like blame. Something along the lines of, "You know what? I've been guilty of the same exact thing that I was attributing to your boyfriend: telling you what to do. I'm going to stop." See what she does with this. 

Thereafter, yes, shifting the friendship to "Let's plan fun things to do together, then do them" sounds like a fine thing to do, though your friend might be caught wrong-footed, at least for a while.  

Thanks. I did a big take-out on this a few years ago,* but it has been a while so I'll post a couple of other comments that have come in. 

Thanks. One more coming ...

Another great, and sad, argument for respecting your kids' feelings instead of assuming you know best.

*and if anyone knows the date of the chat where I posted people's stories of their childhoods, as told through the lens of "staying together for the kids," I'd be most grateful. I searched a good long time for it once, and there just weren't any keywords that were uncommon enough to turn up that transcript. 

Sounds like a lovely idea. 

Maybe it's just a small thing compared with your larger point, but I see the drinking-and-womanizing husband not as "such a terrible person," but instead as an unwell one, emotionally if nothing else. And, people do tend to miss the implications of that when they're choosing mates, since the stakes are often so much lower at the beginning, putting so much less stress on the unwell person, and therefore making the poor health so much less visible--and consequential--than it will be just a few years down the road.

Did the OP make a contribution, by marrying and procreating with him? Yes, absolutely, in just being naive and immature if nothing else. 

But I'm not sure how that mistake is relevant to the decision she's facing--or, specifically, what "Obviously I have my own issues for choosing such a bad father for my kids" would have added to the equation of her question, except to make her (I agree) much more sympathetic.

As for advising someone who admits his or her own faults, it's almost harder, since they take away the most productive first step I can possibly advise: "Look in the mirror." It definitely increases the chance that people will take the advice, though, or at least think it through before rejecting it, which is an equally promising outcome.